Ben Lehman
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Jul 2, 2012
I am passing the time by thinking about a fantasy story I want to write. I want to run some things by people and see if I'm doing anything stupid or unthoughtful. Please don't share outside of limited circles.
The setting is a Sumerian-inspired fantasy, mashed with a bunch of other anachronistic ancient Near East culture stuff. The main character comes from a city that is a pornocracy -- run by temple priestesses who are generally available for sex (historically called "temple prostitutes" but I want to avoid the term because they see what they're doing as religious and civil sacrament). Particularly, actually, the city is run by their children -- the sons and daughters of the city. The idea is that, because they are without patrilineage, they're more inclined to treat everyone equitably, rather than play favorites. Of course, this is prone to problems, politics, cabals, and so on, but the city works decently well and is a thriving center of trade, as well as a military power.
The sons of the city generally marry into patrilineages, the daughters of the city generally stay on as priestesses. There are exceptions to both of these.
My main character is a daughter of the city. She has grown up with the best education, with tutelage in politics, intrigue, and combat, and with a huge sense of entitlement, basically having been denied nothing. She is supremely confident and smart and chavaunistic towards foreigners and commoners. She is sexually confident and possibly aggressive -- no blushing virgin.
I have a tentative plot (basically a foreign prince comes, they fall in love, it turns out he's a spy, he steals an artifact and runs away hoping to get in good with his father, she tracks him down and steals it back, they fight.) But the plot is very tentative.
What I'm trying to figure out is how to deal with pregnancy in the book. On the one hand, I think in setting (and appropriate for the period), bearing children is something that a daughter of the city is expected to do, and would consider a part of her gaining power and prestige as well as supporting society. On the other hand, from a modern perspective, it feels really weird and slightly icky for a young girl to be pregnant, particularly not knowing who the father is. And also if she's going to go on a big epic fantasy adventure quest it maybe feels out of line.
One of my thoughts is alternative sex acts. Which is cool. I mean, the Sumerians considered fellatio and cunnilingus to be divinely-ordained gifts of civilization, along the lines of metalsmithing and agriculture. I was tempted to also give her some sort of birth control magic, but that seems like it undermines the basis of political power in the city: that the sons and daughters of the city could be any man's sons or daughters. Maybe she can do the Empress Jingu thing (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Jingu) and just suppress her pregnancy when she's busy doing quest stuff! Maybe I should just elide pregnancy entirely! Or maybe it's not such a big deal for her to be pregnant during her fantasy quest!
Anyway, it is an issue that I would like some thoughts on. I know that a lot of you might have opinions on this! And I'm never sure what's going to come across as "interesting fantasy setting" vs "really icky ew gross" or "omg creepy-ass misogyny." I'm particularly interested in hearing from women, but, like, anyone can talk.
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Meguey Baker's profile photo
Meguey Baker
+2
Something to look at is life expectancy. If the life expectancy of the people is as long as it is for modern folks of privilege, then yeah, maybe it's weird for her to be pregnant at 15. If it's more likely that she'd be dead by the time she was 45, then by all means, go with the historically appropriate young primepara (first time mother). Also, for a game set in a place that welcomes and supports sexual expression of women, the whole issue of shame at sexuality would be gone. And, as the children of the city inherit that power, it does make sense that there is a befit to having a child and moving into a different level of temple society, having fulfilled a certain part of your role.
Certainly, the priestessess would know what herbs to take to avoid pregnancy, or what suppositories block implantation (IUDs were used in camels a hella long time ago - you cannot convince me women did't understand and use the same technology!), or how barrier methods work (oldest condoms - possibly as old as 10,000 BCE, reliably as old around 1,000 BCE), so if you choose that route, you have plenty of good options.
Jul 2, 2012
Jonathan Reiter's profile photo
Jonathan Reiter
This sounds super interesting.The ideology sounds Mohist and cool. I'm interested how denial of intercourse as a form of ideological leverage (ala Lysistrata) might operate in this social arrangement.
Jul 2, 2012
Renee Knipe's profile photo
Renee Knipe
+1
From a storytelling perspective, I really think pregnancy is an over-used trope...a default way of characterizing women. On the other hand, we don't often see pregnant people off having rousing adventures, so that might be kind of cool.
Maybe she has to make a choice between having the baby and going on this adventure? Something we don't see much of, at least in mainstream pop culture, are abortion narratives where the decision is to not continue the pregnancy. Then again, that's such an emotionally loaded topic that it might take over the story by including it.
Jul 2, 2012
Hans Andersen's profile photo
Hans Andersen
+1
See Jim Hines' "The Stepsister Scheme" for an exemplary example of a pregnant person having rousing adventures. Plus, Sleeping Beauty is a ninja.
Jul 2, 2012
Ben Lehman's profile photo
Ben Lehman
+Renee Knipe I agree re: abortion! I'm not sure that this is the story for it, though.
I don't want to set up a choice of "keep pregnancy or go on adventure."
I guess my question with "pregnant person off questing" is at what point that becomes physically absurd. Clearly if you're 8-9 months pregnant it's not reasonable to be getting into sword fights, climbing cliffs, or swinging off of ropes. But I have no idea where that line is. Also is whether or not I want to do that at all: "tracking down lover who betrayed you" seems way cooler to me than "tracking down baby daddy."
Jul 2, 2012
Renee Knipe's profile photo
Renee Knipe
+1
Well, don't make him the baby daddy then. It would be way cooler if he wasn't anyway.
And heck, if she can have magical birth control charms, why not magical charms that offset swollen ankles and the like? (edited: although that does sort of reek of convenience, now that I think about it)
Jul 2, 2012
Ben Lehman's profile photo
Ben Lehman
Convenience is fine. Primary inspiration is the devil-may-care, never-take-responsibility characters of Zelazny.
Jul 2, 2012
Renee Knipe's profile photo
Renee Knipe
Sounds fun. Totally in my wheelhouse. I'd read it in a second.
Jul 2, 2012
Meguey Baker's profile photo
Meguey Baker
+2
With Sebastian, I was riding my bike 5 miles to work each day until I was about 8 months pregnant. And the same distance home. Physiologically, there are two things to think about when dealing with pregnancy and activity. The first is the obvious one - eventually one's speed is decreased and one's mobility drops. The other is that, during the later half of pregnancy, the ligaments begin to loosen in preparation for delivery, so sprains and dislocations are a bit more common.
A hugely important thing to note here is the difference between how pregnancy and birth are handled in the typical western world and how they are handled in other areas. Western culture sees pregnancy as a medical abnormality, and is very skittish around it. Most other places don't. An example: there is a great book by Penny Armstrong called A Midwife's Story (2006) in which she talks about her years assisting at births in the Amish communitiy in PA. The culture there is that birth is totally natural and not a problem. Women regularly work at all their normal occupations up to a day or two before delivery, and often within a day or two after, they have the baby on their back and they are back tot their usual tasks. These are not super-women, they just have a different way of thinking about pregnancy and birth.
The basic rule for physical exertion of any kind during pregnancy is "Be active to your comfort level". So, if your protagonist is really physically active, there is no reason to slow her down until she's 8 months along.
Jul 3, 2012
Jessica Hammer's profile photo
Jessica Hammer
+3
Maybe that's a useful constraint - she's got a deadline!! A heroine who is awesome and doin' stuff and also incidentally pregnant (meaning, she's not Pregnancy Girl) would be very very cool.
Jul 3, 2012
Alberto Muti's profile photo
Alberto Muti
The "Deadline" idea makes a lot of sense.
More in general, this sounds amazing and i would love to read it.
Jul 3, 2012
Karen Liu's profile photo
Karen Liu
+1
The premise sounds very interesting, Ben! Re pregnancy, it could be that during their training in childhood, they are taught very well about mastering the timing of their cycle, in that they can detect when during the menstual cycle they would get pregnant. You could invent some kind of meditation technique that make her feel it or whatever....
Jul 3, 2012
Meguey Baker's profile photo
Meguey Baker
It's actually a lot easier than that, +Karen Liu. I used fertility awareness to avoid pregnancy for years, and then to get pregnant when I wanted to each time. It's basically learning your body's unique signs and paying attention.
Jul 3, 2012
Karen Liu's profile photo
Karen Liu
+Meguey Baker you're quite right, a lot of people do that, but I have also heard about quite a lot of accidental pregnancies due to delayed periods. 12/13-year-olds also are more likely to have irregular timing at first. I think your general method is the idea, but probably more enhanced descipline.
Jul 3, 2012
Ben Lehman's profile photo
Ben Lehman
+1
Actually, in this context, pregnancy timing is probably a me. Which makes the situation more complicated -- I think she's probably not be allowed to leave if she was pregnant, and she'd know -- but maybe that's just a chance for more plot. Running away for adventure = time honored trope.
Jul 3, 2012
Andy Kitkowski's profile photo
Andy Kitkowski
Interested in seeing more! Ancient history + Roleplaying == A sweet spot few experiences can truly fulfill.
Good luck with the dilemma, too.
Years ago, I experimented with this thing after reading ancient origins of Lilith myths and stuff: Why not be pregnant AND go on adventures!
The Womb Witch was born! The more pregnant she is, the more powerful her magic! And when the child is born, her magic ebbs until she bears again. What an awesome idea, seeped in myth and spirit!
...and then a few years later, I read my description again, but had forgotten all the leadup in my mind to it (I forgot to take notes in my readings, both sources and inspirations), and I was very, Very, VERY embarrassed by it. What the fuck was I thinking? I honestly cannot remember, nor find the sources to retrace my steps. :-)
So I wish you far more luck than my aborted attempts. In any case, ancient historical settings are extremely interesting to me so I'll be following along.
Jul 3, 2012
Ben Lehman's profile photo
Ben Lehman
+Andy Kitkowski Fiction, not RPG.
Pregnancy in fantasy is fascinating and treading really close to all sorts of ickiness. It's a hard call. Hence the thread. I feel like I'm much better equipped to make a decision now.
Jul 3, 2012
Joli St. Patrick's profile photo
Joli St. Patrick
Commenting to follow the convo. I hope this idea takes offl wherever you go with it it sounds like something I'd love to read.
Jul 3, 2012
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